St Ferrer’s Directors, Chris Bertacco and Dan Burmeister recently had the opportunity to discuss St Ferrer’s evolution on ‘The Building Talks Podcast’, hosted by Martin Preece.
The discussion covers the complexity of combustible cladding remediation projects, the evolution of St Ferrer’s business processes, and the cultivation of a strong organisational culture that has emerged from these challenging yet rewarding transitions.
The narrative is a testament to St Ferrer’s ability to navigate and thrive through difficult times by seizing new opportunities. St Ferrer’s story reflects the potential for success even when traditional markets falter, provided that companies are prepared to adapt and innovate with the right leadership and vision.
Continue reading for an exert of the transcript or listen to the full episode on The Building Talks Podcast now:
St Ferrer’s Strategic Shift to Cladding Remediation Amidst COVID-19
Martin:
Yeah, it’s part of the business at that point in time [2020] when Christopher joined, Daniel, the position of [St Ferrer] perhaps hasn’t kicked off as well as the business would have liked. Was it recognised specifically that a specialist sales or business development professional was required or was that just a small part of the overall thinking at that point in time before Chris came on board.
Dan:
No, absolutely. It was something that the business hadn’t – it wasn’t a strong part of the business at the time. I knew the runs on the board that Chris had had in previous companies. It was a no brainer for St Ferrer to go down that path and put time and resources into the sales side and the and the estimating side.
Anyone knows in construction it’s a numbers game and it’s all about volume. You know, the more work that’s coming in, the more work we’re pricing and effectively the more work that we can obviously get a hand on and deliver. No, it was very important. And because of Chris’s skill and experience, he was the one that that led us into the cladding space. At the time, that was not something that that St Ferrer was considering, being traditionally a fit out and refurbishment commercial building company. Our growth and success over the past sort of four or five years is because of this man, this golden goose sitting right next to me on my right-hand side.
Martin:
He’s very kind. It’s well, yes, it’s the Easter Bunny that dropped the Easter Chocolate egg I suppose, in for the for the business to make some money.
So, you were always traditionally a fit out and refurb contractor. COVID hit, I think it was about now, wasn’t it. It was just after… March 2020, because I’ve been in business from 2019. That’s when the business pivoted into combustible cladding projects?
Chris:
Yeah so, we were all in for fit out. We were always going to be a company that was focused with the construction Supply Registry panel. So that meant anything that was really financed by Department of Treasury and Finance. So that was the kind of world and the programmes that we lived in. That would mean that it was a very government focused. We thought that was our key place in the market as well as a couple of private projects.
But we needed to do something pretty drastic because we were staring down the barrel of… really difficult times.
But when COVID happened, I think everything just ground to a halt… no building sites open. And I think it’s five on site. And those kinds of things back in the day, if you recall. But we needed to do something pretty drastic because we were staring down the barrel of… really difficult times. We already had completed one cladding project. We had been to a seminar talking about the programme that the State Government was launching. It was certainly on the radar. We probably all priced maybe five at that point, not knowing where it was all going to go. But once we understood the ramifications of COVID and knowing that cladding became an essential/critical infrastructure, we went all in and quoted as many as we could. We quoted about 50 of them. And didn’t really hear too much back. And then I think six months down the track, we had nothing else to do, it was COVID, so we just kept on quoting. And we got the opportunity to do our first one.
The Urgent Need for Combustible Cladding Removal
Martin:
So, for listeners, I think everybody’s aware of the requirement for cladding removal projects on various combustible cladding buildings that have combustible cladding around Australia. But for those that maybe don’t what what’s the background to, let’s say the inception of the cladding safety, or the cladding, combustible cladding, removal and installation of new cladding. What’s the background to that for listeners that maybe aren’t aware of what happened and how things became about?
Chris:
The big one was lacrosse in the Docklands. And that was a case where a cigarette started a – which wasn’t extinguished properly – ended up starting a fire. And I think it demonstrated straight away that there was a serious issue at hand in the building materials side of the how we’re constructing buildings. That was ACP, they’re referred to. That stands for aluminium composite panel. And that’s an aluminium panel with a polyethylene core and when it’s 30% polyethylene and above, it’s highly flammable. What we found there or what they thought was the cross tower fire required the whole building to be evacuated. It could have been much, much worse than what it was, but it certainly earmarked that there’s some drastic rectifications that need to be done for buildings, certainly just in Victoria alone. The other product is EPS, which is expanding polystyrene, and you’ll see that foam that’s rendered on houses and multi-res, it is very flammable. That was highlighted as something that needs to be addressed as well.
…it certainly earmarked that there’s some drastic rectifications that need to be done for buildings, certainly just in Victoria alone.
From that, there was the NEO 2000 fire and then the one that’s probably the most well-known fire that ever took place was Grenfell Tower. And so, it was fires like this that made everyone realise that this is quite a drastic response needed to take place. And I think for those listeners that saw, it was four weeks ago, we’re in March 2024 now, but four weeks ago the Valencia fire that took place and the video footage from that where you had just a single occupancy, had a fire that looked like you could get on top of. In this particular footage, you could hear the fire engines in the background making their way to the building. And anyone watching would have thought, yeah, they’ve got this. It’ll get a little bit worse and then the whole thing be put out. But the end result was that 131 apartments got burnt, 10 people passed away. It was probably one of the most catastrophic fires anyone’s ever seen the footage of. This essentially is what we need to address, but that building’s not indicative of what we’ve got in Melbourne so much, but it still has flammable cladding and it shows that the response is required.
The most important thing is to know how these potential fires can happen. It could be an e-bike, it could be, as we saw, an unextinguished cigarette, it would be an unattended BBQ, could be an electrical fault. So it’s very real, it can happen, and the idea of remediating the combustible cladding is to mitigate the ability for the fire to spread and have mass devastation.
We’ve just completed our 100th reclad. So, we’ve had massive exposure to all the different elements of how buildings can be remediated…
The most important thing is to know how these potential fires can happen. It could be an e-bike, it could be, as we saw, an unextinguished cigarette, it would be an unattended BBQ, could be an electrical fault. So, it’s very real, it can happen, and the idea of remediating the combustible cladding is to mitigate the ability for the fire to spread and have mass devastation.
Martin:
… And then so back to 2020, early March 2020, COVID kicked in, the business just sounds like it’s kind of realigning with new blood into the business, looking to push it forward again. It’s quite easy to forget – what year are we now, so March 2024 now. So, we’re four years from that sort of fateful period of time in history I suppose… What was the perception of the market and what was the thinking then? Because it was a very nervous time and worrying time for an awful lot of people and businesses. How did you see it at that point in time and that obviously then prompted the pivot into combustible cladding projects.
Chris:
Yeah. So, we had the odd project that would pop up that we would price and win and do, but yeah, it was pretty bad during that time… We had no turning back. We just had to keep our head down and work hard.
Dan:
The worker force got stood down, didn’t they? So, it was a time to sort of trek water and yeah, I suppose that, the cladding was what saved this really. With the opportunities there.
Chris:
And half the successes was the approach, I mean we had nothing else to do and so we were all in and we gave it our best shot. This was our opportunity to get a new client. And these clients were really super attendants at the end of the day – we had a good 15 superintendents who we were working with and we knew that even after cladding that, we always can be doing work with them because they were the superintendents we would be trying to win a fit out with. So, we put our best foot forward and we put together the best response we could possibly do and so when we won our first project, we tried to knock the socks off. We tried to say look how good we are at this. And I think it wasn’t until after about 10 projects that you know you’re unconsciously competent and actually delivering these. The first few you know you’re like, oh, what have I got myself into it. But once we kind of knew that this was not as bad as what we thought it would be – as a concept – we built our team and our teams now you know 12 in the office, 15 on site. And as I said, we’ve just completed our 100th [cladding] project and those projects can vary from ones that take you know eight weeks in design and then, you know, 12 weeks on site to actually be on site for 8 to 10 months. So, they’re a decent sized project.
Navigating Complexities in Combustible Cladding Remediation Projects
Martin:
…my understanding is [cladding remediation projects] get really a lot more complex than initially contractors were expecting. You sort of peel off the combustible cladding and not everybody was fully aware of what was documented behind there or what was wrong. But for listeners that may or may not be aware of that, describe how complex these projects can get, and why they can become much more difficult than you think when you’re looking at this cladding that looks OK, it’s combustible, sounds like it’s easy to move that off, put it back on, good to go. But I know it’s definitely not. They’re much more complex than that. Talk to listeners about what and why they can get quite tricky.
Dan:
Yeah, absolutely. Once a building’s built, it’s not built to have access, be installed and go back up against the building. So, I think for us, to actually access the replacement of the cladding has been one of the biggest challenges. Whether it was ropes off a building, abseiling down a building to replace one square metre of cladding. I mean the time and resource that it takes just to be able to do that when you can’t get scaffold up the side of the building – when you can’t get a boom access, you’re then resorting to rope.
…to actually access the replacement of the cladding has been one of the biggest challenges. Whether it was ropes off a building, abseiling down a building to replace one square metre of cladding.
Access was certainly one of the biggest challenges for us because you’re also dealing with the authorities, you’re dealing with power lines, you’re dealing with tram lines. It can become a real, real challenge and in that process is the building permit. It’s the speed in which you can satisfy the building surveyor, get the building permit, meet all the obligations of council and the authorities and everybody knows, all the listeners, or most listeners would know that different Councils have different sets of rules. So, one Council would be quite obliging and other councils would be a bit more challenging, a bit more tough to approve certain things like your construction management plans and that.
There were so many moving parts, live environments, these people, this is their home. This is their place of work for a lot of them since COVID. So, setting up scaffolding on someone’s balcony and working across people’s balconies whilst they’re trying to live there and work, it’s been one of the biggest challenges. And if they’re not owners of the apartments and they’re renters, that itself has presented many, many challenges, especially with the communication from owners back to their tenants.
What else, Chris? Well, I suppose weather. You’re taking the outside of the building off, through the middle of winter and through the middle of wet season, and water ingress has been a huge challenge and trying to keep peoples apartments dry whilst the outside of their apartments and things are exposed. That that’s been quite a quite a large challenge for us.
Strategic Implementation of Systems and Personnel in Cladding Remediation Projects
Martin:
…Talk me through, I guess as business leaders, how you then identify that you’ve got to put certain systems in place to be able to A, deliver these projects, but B entice people to the business to help deliver the projects, which is quite a niched space. How did you apply that operationally through the business and the considerations and thoughts that you were having as business leaders at that time?
Dan:
Yeah, like I said before, the circumstances with cladding and cladding in a live environment was important to note that putting the right trades, the right sub-contractors on these projects, the evaluations that we would do for placing those contractors and companies on the projects because whilst they are a construction site, they’re kind of not in a sense. Because it’s not like you’ve got a clean run and there’s no public on site. So, I think that was really important. And then obviously above that, it’s about the management and it’s putting the right management team on these projects because there’s just so many stakeholders involved.
Like Chris said before you’re having a government representative come on to your site every second day, you’re being reviewed in terms of the way that you’re actually delivering the projects with the building products. Are they the right building products? Have the building products that have been – have they been codemarked certified and the cheques and balances that are in place and the systems to making sure that that happens.
Chris mentioned before ITP’s. These projects being installed in line with the installation manuals that are provided by the manufacturers. It’s just, I suppose, as owners of the business having the right, the right team, and then rolling that out across multiple cladding projects has been important and that’s been the success as the years have gone on since 2019-2020 to now 2024. St Ferrer being the builder of choice for cladding remediation in Victoria. Do you want to add anything to that Chris?
Chris:
Yeah. When you’re under that much scrutiny, it’s surprising how quick you get really, really good and your systems start to grow and you start building manuals within your business of process. I guess from that we’re just on our final stages of ISO accreditation. When we’re going through all our assessments from that it kind of highlights how advanced we had become after three years, four years in this programme.
It’s ensuring that our company and St Ferrer and the people within it that they’re adhering to I suppose, globally recognised procedures and processes, being safety, quality and environment.
Dan:
It’s ensuring that our company and St Ferrer and the people within it that they’re adhering to I suppose, globally recognised procedures and processes, being safety, quality and environment. It’s been great and the cladding has allowed us to become this new branded company that we are today.
How St Ferrer’s Cladding Projects Strengthened its Presence in Fit-out and Refurbishment
Martin:
And the business is still involved in the fit out/refurbishment space… All those learnings that you have gained from delivering these intensive, rigorous, very intensely assessed and reviewed – that you’ve gone through on the cladding side – have those systems and processes made the business stronger for fit out and refurbishment projects as well? And if so, how has it helped you with your more traditional projects as well?
Chris:
Yeah, as I said before, today it’s such a better company. We’ve attracted clients we never would have dreamt to have had. We’re up to our, I guess our 6th, 7th, 8th project with RMIT University. I couldn’t have dreamt to have been doing projects for them, but here we are. Doing some really sizable fit out work with them that takes, ten months to do. And we’ve just completed the Porsche Spare Parts Warehouse, which is cantilevered on top of their building in Collingwood. That’s such a huge brand to be associated with. VSBA works, is now something that probably makes up about 10/15% of our business. I guess it’s word of mouth, it’s try us out on the smaller ones and then see that we actually can perform on the bigger projects. And it’s all those kinds of projects that we’re winning, I guess, is testament to the systems that we’ve put in place in the last three/four years.
Dan:
Absolutely.
St Ferrer’s Strategic Pivot: Embracing the Cladding Sector
Martin:
It’s interesting how one thing leads to another. Do you think you’d have gone so heavily into the cladding space – I know you mentioned you were pricing cladding projects before COVID kicked in and everything. You know the fit out, refurbishment market pretty much stopped. Do you think you’d have gone into it with the same vim and ambition, if COVID hadn’t kind of forced your hand a little bit?
Chris:
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, we were always in search of – I honestly believe that the industry, one of the biggest faults in fit out and construction is if you are not concentrated on the right sector to be in. And the right sector has to have all of these little checkpoints and for us, in regard to being cladding, just the way the projects get administered to how you know they get assessed, to the competition you’ve got within the other builders that you’re working with, it seemed like a really good fit for us. The fit out area is a very tough and competitive marketplace. It’s not for the faint hearted. There’s no room for a mistake to be made.
Dan:
Especially if it’s D&C and it’s fast-paced.
Chris:
Yeah. I think we would naturally would have – regardless of COVID – we would have gone to always say, pointed in the direction of the of the sector that was going to treat St Ferrer best. Otherwise, you can really get yourself into – you can go down the wrong path, concentrating on certain programmes that are just highly competitive, I guess.
Martin:
And so here we are, so we are in March 2024, so four years ago since COVID started, the business has gone strong, become one of the, if not the, but definitely one of the top performers within that cladding replacement space. Where’s the market sit for the business now? How are you sort of foreseeing things moving forward?…
Chris:
Well, we always want to be diversified in our clientele base and we want to do it in a way that’s recession proof. So, there’s government money and then there’s private money and you’ve just got to have that balance so you’ve got a lot of irons in the fire.
I touched on it before, but I think as long as you’re focusing on the right sector – and that means that sectors got the right margin of profitability, I think you’ll be you’ll be OK moving forward within this industry. You hear about a lot of building companies recently have gone into administration, some of the biggest ones, some of our competitors. And all I can think is it’s it revolves around that old profitless boom kind of concept, the whole race to the bottom when you’re in the wrong sector, where you’re just trying to continually win those, you know, might be government projects, but it’s just so ferocious within that pond that you try to work in.
You just don’t want to be in that part. So, you’ve just got to find your space that you’re great and you operate well in, and that comes back to the tier of building company you’re in. So, don’t stick your neck out too far, do what’s capable – only take on projects within your capability. And have the right people around you. And that’s what we’ve focused on. We’ve focused on the really strong culture and team in our business. And we’re not scared of taking on bigger projects and more complex projects, but we just do it step by step. Know what your capabilities are.
Attracting Talent in Construction: Aligning Expertise with Company Values
Martin:
And what view comes first? Is it the seeking the opportunity, identifying that there’s the right margin, the right client, the right pipeline of work, and then building a team suited to that? Or do you tend to take the point of view that you sort of hire the best people you can and dependent on those skill sets will direct you towards the right market for the team, or a bit of both? How do you kind of?
Chris:
Bit of both. Yeah. So, if you got people that have got really strong construction background, then you might do something that you usually don’t do. Like we did some early works recently for Moonee Valley, and we probably wouldn’t have taken that work on unless we had site managers that you know, this is their bread and butter, they know exactly every element. It’s not my cup of tea.
Really angry structural jobs, you know? Certainly not my – I haven’t got much to add to it, you know? But if you’ve got a team that have done it day in day out for the last 30-40 years and you go oh, put them on that job. And they do come from a Tier 1 and Tier 2 background, so you’ve got all that experience and it’s like, well, you’re just really matching the right people to the job.
Martin:
…How do you then sort of entice people like that towards – you describe the business as a Tier 4 – how do you get people into your business and keep them? Because obviously it then provides a skill set and a competence to your business that gives the business opportunity to grow and going in different directions – but how do you get people and attract people like that to what is perceived to be a smaller organisation or a Tier 4 builder that perhaps doesn’t pay the big money that a tier one does – but how do you attract and retain those types of people?
Chris:
Yeah. So it’s their point that they’re at in their life usually.
Dan:
Yeah, they’re probably already been in Tier – well, a lot of them have been in Tier 1, Tier 2 and they’re burnt out. So, they come looking, with the help of you know companies like Building Environs, that put the best in class candidates in front of us as a business and an organisation. Once you understand about culture and what we stand for. Yeah, there’s plenty of good people out there.
I think the biggest reward you can get in this industry, I think everyone in this industry will say, is the legacy you leave behind once you’ve built a structure, a building, a fit out.
Chris:
I think the biggest reward you can get in this industry, I think everyone in this industry will say, is the legacy you leave behind once you’ve built a structure, a building, a fit out. And sometimes I think, well I’m speaking to some of our site managers that were Tier 1, Tier 2, they felt like they played a small contribution to the greater picture. Whereas if you’re a Tier 4, you are the contribution, you know, that is your building, you owned and lived and breathed it. You probably did far more than what your normal site manager role was. You probably did – were on the back of a broom for quite a bit of it. At the end of the day that’s yours, and I think the people who come to this business are people that want to have the autonomy to run their own projects, not have 100 different people around them, telling them what to do and the hierarchies that are involved… They want to nurture it a little bit more. They want to say that was mine – that one on that corner, that’s mine, I can tell you everything about it because I did that. And I think that’s why they take a step back down…
Celebrating the Team: St Ferrer’s Key to Success
Martin:
…Would you have changed anything over the last few years from that evolution of the business because it’s not been a linear path has it for St Ferrer, you’ve had to sort of think on your feet a bit and adapt to challenges. Would you have changed that, or do you think that you’re better for it?
Chris:
I don’t think – no, no change, no change. It’s been a perfect drive. It’s had it’s bumps, but you know it’s challenges but what we’ve got today, March 2024 is something really amazing and it’s a dream come true for Dan and myself. Our team, our culture is incredibly strong. Our clients are amazing. Prospects into the future are looking great. Everything we’ve done in the past has brought us to this point, but I think it’s crazy not to talk about how good our team is cause we have got the most amazing estimating teams all the way through from our project coordinators, our design manager, the operations manager, project manager, CA’s, everyone’s all in. We couldn’t have done it without them. We have built this strong culture and that’s a cliche word but we do all the things like birthday cakes that you know, ones birthdays, monthly team lunches. We do ice baths… We’re all about trying to be better every day and be a better builder and better workplace… And I think that’s what’s got us this far.
Listen to The Building Talks Podcast full episode here: